lördag, maj 31, 2008

J. Krishnamurti and David Bohm about the nature of Time

The Ending of Pain and Time
In this edited dialog between J. Krishnamurti and David Bohm, Krishnamurti explains how the flow of time starts, and broaches the possibility of ending psychological time:

K: Now how am I . . . to be free of time? . . . Can time as thought come to a stop? The memory of experiences, hurts, attachments . . . can come to an end when the very perception asks, what is it? What is hurt? What is psychological damage? The perception of it is the ending of it. Not carrying it over, which is time. The very ending of it is the ending of time. . . .
Trying to understand Krishnamurti's proposition, David Bohm focuses the discussion on a specific example of being hurt:
DB: The first thing is that there has been a hurt. That is the image [of 'me' being hurt], but at first I don't separate it. I feel identified with it.
K: I am that.
DB: I am that. But then I draw back, and say that I think there must be a 'me' who can do something.
K: Yes, can operate on it.
DB: Now that takes time.
K: That is time. . . . Let's go slowly into it. I am hurt. That is a fact. Then I separate myself--there is a separation--saying, I will do something about it.
DB: The 'me' who will do something is different. . . . It projects into the future a different state.
K: Yes. I am hurt. There is a separation, a division. The 'me', which is always pursuing the becoming [In this dialog, the word 'becoming' refers to the ego trying to become something], says, I must control it. I must wipe it out. I must act upon it . . . . So this movement of separation is time." (p. 72)
DB: . . . A person is thinking that the hurt exists independently of 'me', and I must do something about it. I project into the future the better state and what I will do. . . So I am hurt and I will become non-hurt. Now that very thought maintains the hurt.
K: That's right. . . .
DB: Now if you don't maintain it, what happens? Suppose you say, I won't go on with this becoming?
K: Ah, that is quite a different matter. It means I am no longer thinking, no longer observing, or using time as an observation.
DB: You could say that is not your way of looking. It is not your theory any more.
K: That's right. . . .
DB: Because you could say time is a theory which everybody adopts for psychological purposes.
K: Yes. That is the common factor; time is the common factor of man. And we are pointing out time is an illusion . . .
DB: Psychological time.
K: Of course, that is understood.
DB: Are you saying that when we no longer approach this through time, then the hurt does not continue?
K: It does not continue, it ends--because you are not becoming anything.
DB: In becoming you are always continuing what you are.
K: That's right. Continuing what you are, modified . . .
DB: If man feels something is out of order psychologically he then brings in the notion of time, and the thought of becoming, and that creates endless problems. [This last statement is from p. 23.]

Excerpted from pp. 69-73 of The Ending of Time, by J. Krishnamurti & David Bohm (San Francisco: Harper & Row, 1985).

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